Recommend a Digital Press

[artshostak]

I work at a business firm that produces and sells a full range of orthodontic products. Currently we outsource the printing for all our promotional materials (color letter-sized ads, fee-guide brochures, etc.) and are now looking to begin producing these in-house. We need a digital color press for short-run production of around 5,000 items a month. Print quality is crucial. Most of our items are printed on a glossy surface (sometimes on black background, sometimes with gradients and blocks of solid color).

We currently have several Ricoh printers/copiers in the office, and are thrilled with their service support. Our outsourcing is done with a KM 6500. We were recommended some models including the Ricoh C550Ex, Xerox C550and Canon 5030.

I am interested to know what you would recommend.

Thanks.

 

[Josh]

Will cost you an absolute fortune, almost definitely more than you'd be paying now.... what's the reason for wanting to produce in house?

 

[artshostak]

We did a cost analysis and determined the investment to be one that is worth making. I think we are definitely moving through with it, the only question that remains is which model to choose. Any help?

 

[benny123]

wrong Canon mate. The iR ADV C7055 is the comparable model. Its on the light production scale if you add fiery and the pod deck lite. The 5030 is an office copier.

 

[artshostak]

wrong Canon mate. The iR ADV C7055 is the comparable model. Its on the light production scale if you add fiery and the pod deck lite. The 5030 is an office copier.

You are right, that's actually one of the models Canon is now (a couple of days later) suggesting to us. It's likely between the Canon 7055, Ricoh C550ex and Xerox C550. It might just come down to the demos between those. We actually haven't looked into any KM models at all, are we making a mistake here? Anything other models we should try and cover?

 

[riky]

I think Xerox C550 would be best for you, as you mentioned that you are running a professional firm, and must have high volumes of printing.. so this model is very good in your case.




Label Printing

 

[Corey]

I would demo all of 3 of them first. Seek more feedback in this forum too by searching on the printer names. You may find out flaws about each by searching in this forum, but all of them will have flaws. Its just determining what flaws you can live with....!

 

[medialounge]

I work at a business firm that produces and sells a full range of orthodontic products. Currently we outsource the printing for all our promotional materials (color letter-sized ads, fee-guide brochures, etc.) and are now looking to begin producing these in-house. We need a digital color press for short-run production of around 5,000 items a month. Print quality is crucial. Most of our items are printed on a glossy surface (sometimes on black background, sometimes with gradients and blocks of solid color).

We currently have several Ricoh printers/copiers in the office, and are thrilled with their service support. Our outsourcing is done with a KM 6500. We were recommended some models including the Ricoh C550Ex, Xerox C550and Canon 5030.

I am interested to know what you would recommend.

Thanks.

It seems like you will also have to hire graphics personnel to create your full color materials. Are you ready to hire graphics/prepress personnel?

 

[artshostak]

It seems like you will also have to hire graphics personnel to create your full color materials. Are you ready to hire graphics/prepress personnel?

That's actually my exact role with the company. I am only assisting them with the research for this acquisition. All the graphics have always been done in-house, it's only the printing that has ever been outsourced.

I think it's come down to running a demo between Xerox 550, Ricoh C550EX, Canon C7055 (as Corey had mentioned). Should we consider the KM BizHub Press C6000 as well? I've been researching older threads on this board breaking each down, but I can't seem to narrow in on one. Maybe you guys can help me filter it down with the good old process of deduction?

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

sorry about the "tone" from some of my colleagues, maybe they are threatened, but to your question, yes I would put the KM in the mix, real solid machine and output is less glossy and streaky then the Xerox, so it kind of gives more of an offset feel. All machines mentioned are light production and very user friendly and used in many larger offices, think you will find performance very close on all the units so it may come down to who can provide best service and also bring them all to the table and stretch process out as long as possible and you will get the best price. If you call up Xerox and say you are large company looking to buy a light production printer and you will get the sucker price for sure, but if multiple vendors are involved they will do your negotiating for you, everyone is hungry these days...

 

[X33]

I think you definitely have to demo the units. You will have a clearer picture after that.

Besides the equipment, make sure to find out about the service organization that will support you. That will be as important (if not more) as the technology you are buying.

 

[artshostak]

Thank you X33 and TheProcessIStheproduct,

I have a few demos set up for next early next week. We will be testing out the following four models: Ricoh Pro C550EX, Xerox Color 550, Canon ImageRunner C7055, and KM BizHub Press C6000.

If there are any other close equivalents in this field I should take a look at while at these demonstrations, please let me know. Thanks so much for all your help on this thus far, I really do appreciate it.

Could anyone recommend a template test-print that maybe has some gradients and solid color blocks with pantone color that I could use to really bring out the strengths and weaknesses of these units?

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

I always like to use a full format 20% screen for each CMYK, it will show you every little mark, and streak and hop...

 

[CathieH]

Printers and such

Printers and such

I was in your shoes not too long ago. We had an old KM C500 and it just didn't cut it any more. So we went shopping and testing, Canon, Xerox and KM. Canon quality wasn't very good, but the buzz is that service is the biggest problem. Getting a service contract and quick turnaround on fixes is very important to keep downtime to a minimum.

Xerox - well, the reps ticked off the decision-maker (long story) so they were thrown out the door and never considered. I've run a Xerox before and they have good machines. I seemed to have a lot of service call needs, but they were quick to come in.

As for KM, we ended up with a KM C6501 that I'm running now. I really like the quality, speed and no jamming so far. I've run a lot of work on it and it keeps going. I had one problem, but I've always had great service. However, we're running through a dealer, not directly with KM.

I'm also running a Creo rip. What kind of rip system are you considering - driver, Creo, Fiery, Micropress?

Keep us posted. I'm interested to watch this thread as it evolves.

 

[artshostak]

I always like to use a full format 20% screen for each CMYK, it will show you every little mark, and streak and hop...

Could you go into a little more detail regarding this approach? It's exactly what I am looking for.

neleson: I think the Xerox model carries the heaviest price-tag, and thus initially comes off as the most expensive option. Do you mean that due to its efficiency it will actually end up costing us less down the line?

CathieH: It's good to hear of a similar case. We aren't thrilled with the test-prints we've received from Canon either, but we are trying a different model. We are also still waiting on a quote for it, which is a bit discouraging. Xerox has a real pushy sales rep, and is almost off-putting by that alone.

I don't know enough about the different RIPs to have a preference just yet. What do you recommend, let's say for the KM system? As I understood it, they are all viable means to the same end – attaining the right color configuration. Let me know if there is more to it.

 

[CathieH]

The Micropress offers the most features, but costs an arm and a leg. We chose to go with the Creo RIP for our color machine because we heard it has a more stable and consistent color quality and I haven't been disappointed with it. Some people prefer a Fiery, but I've never run one so I can't comment on that.

 

[artshostak]

Okay guys, a week and four demos later here is our updated review of the three models we are deliberating on:

Xerox Color 550:

• Reasonably priced, right in the middle of the three. Highest cost per click.
• Pushy sales personnel that have gone back-and-forth with us five or six times. Not the way our company likes to do business.
• Sample prints are nothing special, haven't seen these "rich blacks" that they constantly talk about. Great vivid color, but seems to lack the fine grain that brings out the sharpness in the subject – especially in the skin tones.

Ricoh Pro C550Ex:

• Because we currently do business with them for a number of our black & white office machines, they believe they have our business secured. Highest price, but the cost per print is significantly better than the competition.
• The print/copy dpi (at 600x600) is three/four times less than the other two machines. Is this something to heavily weigh against them?
• The sample prints received seem to compete well with Xerox.
• Their lease agreement being a fair-market buy-out value of 3.5% of the original purchase price is troubling to say the least.

Konica Minolta BizHub C652:

• By far the most reasonable personnel surrounding the machine we've dealt with in our search. Very knowledgeable, amicable, and understand how to operate and showcase their unit to the best of its ability. Lowest overall price, although the external fiery seems to be pricey (around $150/mo additional), but necessary since the Emperon controller just doesn't do it for us. Cost per click is down the middle.
• Beautiful looking machine. We were not necessarily impressed with the cartridges though, too awkward in size and seemed prone to spills. The finisher seems to be the only one out of the three that can do a tri-fold, which allows us to print brochures in-house too. We welcome that.
• Very straight forward lease arrangement and warranty.
• Sample prints we received did not compare well, unfortunately, the blacks were especially faded. The unit didn't have a Fiery controller on it, and we are considering that it might make a significant difference (especially with the rich black option it offers). We've given them an extra few days to get the Fiery RIP installed and send us the updated samples.

Overall, we don't really want to do business with Xerox, Ricoh doesn't seem to be trying too hard and their lease arrangement is off-putting, while KM seems like the most reasonable unit with a remarkable price and hopefully can produce better results with the Fiery controller installed. Is there anything anyone can add about any of these three machines that can sway us towards one or away from another? We could really use a couple of pointers from a neutral party.

Also, what's our best option with the lease arrangement? Should we try to own the machine at the end of it's time, and if so how does the service apply at the end of our lease term? Or should we try to get the company to go with a fair-market assessment option to buy back the machine closer to the end of our term? And if so, what's a good rate to be expecting? We are hearing everything from 3% to 15%, but don't think either is really that good. What has everyone's experience been with this? We'd like to think that we would want to invest in a new machine in 4 years time, being that the company likes to keep up with technological change.

Need your help fellas, the time of the decision is drawing close!

Oh, and CathieH – no one is offerring a Micropress RIP to us. Looks like the Fiery will have to do for now.

 

[Nonie]

If you are already happy with the Ricoh service why not get a Ricoh Production Printer. The Pro C901 will handle all your applications and there are three new production devices being launched within a month that would also meet your requirements. PRo C651EX, Pro C751EX & Pro C751

 

[CathieH]

Hey artshostack.

It sounds like after all your research, testing and whatnot, you're leaning toward the KM. I really do like ours and haven't had many problems. I did recently have a front-to-back registration problem that I wasn't able to fix on my own, but the tech came and was able to get it to back up within 1mm. It was fairly critical for it to back up correctly. The black was also washed out on the last few runs, so he fixed that as well. (I love having a service contract!)

Anyway, I really like the KM. You're going to get a lot of differing opinions on here, some from people like me who just run the machines, some that supervise those that run the machines and are responsible for the financial side of things, and then those that are actual techs or reps for the various presses.

I do believe that the Fiery rip will help solve some of the color problems you're having, as I've been able to do with my Creo.

As for leasing and the money side, I'm in no way responsible for that, I only know what I charge the customer, although somewhere in my paperwork I have what we pay them. But we lease ours as we know that we'll be upgrading before a buyout comes around, so that seems to make the most sense. Like you, I feel that we'd invest in newer technology in 3-5 years (depending on how or if our needs change) and we also like to keep up with technology as much as possible. In fact, that's why I was hired.

Good luck on your choice. Do keep in mind the way they treated you when you were there because that's the way you'll be treated down the road when crunch time comes.

Also, let us know where you're at in your decision and eventually what you decide. It's so much hit and miss, so let your gut help you in your decision-making.

Cathie

 

[artshostak]

Nonie: That was our plan all along (to go with Ricoh), but as I previously mentioned – because they already have us as their customer, they don't seem to be trying as hard their competitors. The sticker price for their unit is the highest. And the C901 was not one of the models that was offerred to us.

CathieH: I am starting to realize that I was leaning towards the KM unit because I wanted some viable alternative to Xerox after some shaky dealings with them. Now it's looking like the Xerox model is actually the better option out of the four in the running and I want to make sure I make an unbiased decision of the best unit for the workplace.

I've kind of made a poll here to narrow it down, any feedback would be helpful:
http://printplanet.com/forums/digital-printing-discussion/26526-km-652-ricoh-c550ex-xerox-c550

It's decision time today or tomorrow, and thanks for all your help.
I'll let you know how it all falls into place.