Recommended Monthly Volume for Versant 180

[CliffSpielman]

Hi. I'm currently working towards finding the right press for me (this has been on and off for a while). I've seen the Versant 80 and newer 180 do what I need but during a conversation with one local dealer, I was told they wouldn't even sell me one because of my tentative monthly volume. He said the minimum monthly volume should be 6,000 prints and even better would be 20,000 prints or more. Without using the press in this regular fashion, it's prone to service issues and they don't want to deal with that. My volume for a few months may be more like 2,000 per month.

But another local dealer says this is likely not a problem, and they've placed Versants in low volume evironments (like 3,000 monthly prints) without issue. They are looking into this further.

So I'm confused. I'm still looking into other presses, but let's assume for purposes of this post that the Versant 180 is the direction I need to go in. Am I destined for service issues and problems if I only print 1-2K prints for the first few months? Even if you have insights into this regarding other presses, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[gazfocus]

Personally, I think the true reason is because the dealers make money off every sheet you print. So, if you only print 2,000 pages a month, they’re not going to make a lot whereas if you print 20,000 they’ll make a lot more.

It’s complete rubbish about service issues if a printer doesn’t do a certain number of prints IMO.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Personally, I think the true reason is because the dealers make money off every sheet you print. So, if you only print 2,000 pages a month, they’re not going to make a lot whereas if you print 20,000 they’ll make a lot more.

It’s complete rubbish about service issues if a printer doesn’t do a certain number of prints IMO.

I think 20,000 clicks per month is not enough for a V180. Shoot for 40,000 to make the numbers work in your favor a bit better.

 

[Lorenzo lab guy]

" Without using the press in this regular fashion, it's prone to service issues and they don't want to deal with that." We have a Versant and I can assure you that statement is complete baloney. As others have said, it is a probably pay-per-click commercial issue. with a minimum service fee, low usage might make you cost per print uneconomical, but that is your problem. The sales guys has no idea what your margins are so tell him to go jump off a cliff. Oh, I have done that with one rep - we told Xerox he was banned from our shop. Still, it is a good printer.

 

[gazfocus]

We have just had a new Konica Minolta C3070 installed and our monthly volume is around 2,000 - 5,000 per month but we make a good profit margin on each print so even at 2,000 prints we cover the cost of the printer and the click charges.

 

[CliffSpielman]

" Without using the press in this regular fashion, it's prone to service issues and they don't want to deal with that." We have a Versant and I can assure you that statement is complete baloney. As others have said, it is a probably pay-per-click commercial issue. with a minimum service fee, low usage might make you cost per print uneconomical, but that is your problem. The sales guys has no idea what your margins are so tell him to go jump off a cliff. Oh, I have done that with one rep - we told Xerox he was banned from our shop. Still, it is a good printer.

When my conversation with the dealer happened, I did push back and ask for some assurance this wasn't just about the click charges. He insisted it was only due to the potential service nightmare he would have with an underused press. He recommended instead a Xerox C70 which - according to him - doesn't have the same Min Monthly Volume and service issues as the Versant. As of now the C70 doesn't do what I need it to printing-wise, but that's another story.

I'm starting to doubt the dealer more than I was when I posted this. With that said, I'm sure it's better for a press to see regular use rather than not be used for months, but to quantify that in terms of a minimum number of monthly prints is sounding fishy.

 

[CliffSpielman]

Personally, I think the true reason is because the dealers make money off every sheet you print. So, if you only print 2,000 pages a month, they’re not going to make a lot whereas if you print 20,000 they’ll make a lot more.

It’s complete rubbish about service issues if a printer doesn’t do a certain number of prints IMO.

Right, they are definitely not going to retire off my click charges for the first 3-6 months. Here in Albuquerque, there aren't a ton of Xerox dealers but at least there's more than one to choose from.

 

[AP90]

Honestly, I can see where a dealer is coming from on this and pretty much agree with it. Your coming to him with an estimate about 2k clicks a month. I’m guessing monthly lease on a 180 plus fiery is running at least 1500/month plus clicks. Probably more. I get it that a lot of businesses don’t turn a profit at the beginning. But if I’m selling you equipment, the chance of him getting repayed each month for an extended time is not looking good on his end. Then he has to deal with repossession and now he has a used machine on his hand he’s going to have to offload heavily discounted cause it’s used. In his mind I’m guessing he would rather loose a possible sale to avoid these problems. Not saying your business is doomed or will fail, but it has a higher chance than say if I walked in and said I do 200k clicks a month and I want a V180.

Think of it as a car sale. If you walk into a dealership and say I need a work truck, that brand new $90k f-350 will do. I’ll be hauling “whatever” but don’t have any clients yet. But don’t worry, I’ll get them. The salesman is gonna be like maybe this used f150 is gonna be a better option for you.

 

[CliffSpielman]

Honestly, I can see where a dealer is coming from on this and pretty much agree with it. Your coming to him with an estimate about 2k clicks a month. I’m guessing monthly lease on a 180 plus fiery is running at least 1500/month plus clicks. Probably more. I get it that a lot of businesses don’t turn a profit at the beginning. But if I’m selling you equipment, the chance of him getting repayed each month for an extended time is not looking good on his end. Then he has to deal with repossession and now he has a used machine on his hand he’s going to have to offload heavily discounted cause it’s used. In his mind I’m guessing he would rather loose a possible sale to avoid these problems. Not saying your business is doomed or will fail, but it has a higher chance than say if I walked in and said I do 200k clicks a month and I want a V180.

Think of it as a car sale. If you walk into a dealership and say I need a work truck, that brand new $90k f-350 will do. I’ll be hauling “whatever” but don’t have any clients yet. But don’t worry, I’ll get them. The salesman is gonna be like maybe this used f150 is gonna be a better option for you.

I understand your point but if that's the case then the dealer shouldn't claim it's because of potential service issues that the sale would be refused. That's cheesy. It's also short-sighted. I'm here in little ol' Albuquerque where I don't think they sell too many Versants. Besides, this 2K click business could turn into a 50K click situation later on.

It's possible that because the dealer is part of Xerox, they aren't technically allowed to deny me because of low monthly clicks but have to blame it on potential service issues. Not sure.

 

[AP90]

Id say more or less they are just being nice about saying you don't have anywhere near the volume to support the machine and they don't want to take the risk. Either way, they can deny you for any reason I'd say. I still think the best option for you would be going with someone who already has the equipment you need and just outsourcing your work in the beginning to them.

 

[CliffSpielman]

Id say more or less they are just being nice about saying you don't have anywhere near the volume to support the machine and they don't want to take the risk. Either way, they can deny you for any reason I'd say. I still think the best option for you would be going with someone who already has the equipment you need and just outsourcing your work in the beginning to them.

I see your points and you could be right on the nose, but I don't equate dishonesty with being nice - not in my personal life and not in business. I'm a fellow member of the business community looking for equipment. I have the income and credit to justify it. If there is a minimum click policy then be forthright about it. Maybe I'd even commit to such a policy.

 

[kslight]

I know the older equipment would have issues if it sat for several days at a time..whether that's true anymore...probably not. I would suspect the dealer's reasoning is less to do with service concerns, more just that its not a lot of volume...that's really more like a small office kind of volume so they probably do not think that a production machine is a good fit. For that little of volume, why not go with a vendor until your volume increases? I don't understand your application, would the machine sit all month except for one job? Or function like an office machine? Or a handful of really small runs?

I have been told (and experienced first hand) that Xerox has no interest in dealing directly with clients that will give them less than $250k per year anymore, they are a pretty funny company all around and would take it as a sign that they don't want your business.

 

[CliffSpielman]

I know the older equipment would have issues if it sat for several days at a time..whether that's true anymore...probably not. I would suspect the dealer's reasoning is less to do with service concerns, more just that its not a lot of volume...that's really more like a small office kind of volume so they probably do not think that a production machine is a good fit. For that little of volume, why not go with a vendor until your volume increases? I don't understand your application, would the machine sit all month except for one job? Or function like an office machine? Or a handful of really small runs?

I have been told (and experienced first hand) that Xerox has no interest in dealing directly with clients that will give them less than $250k per year anymore, they are a pretty funny company all around and would take it as a sign that they don't want your business.

Actually one Xerox dealer has been awesome in working with me. I had wanted to two talk to two dealers, the second being the one who wouldn't sell me a V180. I have been outsourcing my work for years. It's time to have my own equipment. My content takes a lot of experimentation to print - I'd be driving people crazy if I continue to work with print shops.

 

[kslight]

Actually one Xerox dealer has been awesome in working with me. I had wanted to two talk to two dealers, the second being the one who wouldn't sell me a V180. I have been outsourcing my work for years. It's time to have my own equipment. My content takes a lot of experimentation to print - I'd be driving people crazy if I continue to work with print shops.

Fair enough. Wasn't knocking your business, more just trying to understand. You obviously must have a little bit unusual application. Hope it works out!

 

[CliffSpielman]

Fair enough. Wasn't knocking your business, more just trying to understand. You obviously must have a little bit unusual application. Hope it works out!

np, I appreciate everybody's input

 

[gazfocus]

It's a bit of an odd one. We have bought two machines now...the first was a used Xerox C560 which we bought 2 years ago. This was bought from a Xerox dealer on a Xerox service contract. The latest purchase is a brand new Konica C3070 which we purchased direct from Konica. On neither occasion, has either dealer even asked about our print volume.

We generally tried to avoid printing on the Xerox at all costs because it's an awful printer for what we needed to do (to be fair it probably just wasn't set up correctly), so we were upfront with the Konica rep about outsourcing everything. We easily pay more each month for our Konica than we spend in click charges, but for us, other areas of our business cover the shortfall or we make a decent enough profit on the volumes we do print.

I certainly wouldn't be putting off buying your own machine if you honestly believe you can justify the cost (remember most of the leases are tied in for 5 years so it's a long commitment).

 

[Lorenzo lab guy]

Actually one Xerox dealer has been awesome in working with me. I had wanted to two talk to two dealers, the second being the one who wouldn't sell me a V180. I have been outsourcing my work for years. It's time to have my own equipment. My content takes a lot of experimentation to print - I'd be driving people crazy if I continue to work with print shops.

Cliff,
I really think you are on the right track with the Versant. We do some standard commercial (commodity) printing on our Versant, but the main reason we have it is for specialized, boutique specialty products, for which it is a good machine. The printer sales guy doesn't really understand that a single cardstock sheet coming out of that printer can generated $8 or more by the time we are done finishing it. He doesn't understand printing as few as a 1000 sheets per month could justify having that machine in a production shop.

 

[gazfocus]

Cliff,
I really think you are on the right track with the Versant. We do some standard commercial (commodity) printing on our Versant, but the main reason we have it is for specialized, boutique specialty products, for which it is a good machine. The printer sales guy doesn't really understand that a single cardstock sheet coming out of that printer can generated $8 or more by the time we are done finishing it. He doesn't understand printing as few as a 1000 sheets per month could justify having that machine in a production shop.

Exactly. Just because your volume is only 2,000 sheets per month, the dealer has no idea what your profit margins are.

 

[rainman23]

We've had a V180 for 12 months now, other than the constant issues with the 2nd BTR, the machine is brilliant, does way more than a box of this size should. to be honest I would have 3/4 of them if I had the volume. If you can afford to buy it outright do it! then its 100% down to you to get the right work, small number of clicks or not, its all about margin, don't kill the machine with 100,000's of clicks if your not making money! if you have found a niche that makes you good profit keep running 2k per month.

To me the most important thing is 'Service' make sure you have some good Xerox engineers in your area, we are blessed with two top guys, who know their stuff and response times are 2nd to none.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

We've had a V180 for 12 months now, other than the constant issues with the 2nd BTR, the machine is brilliant, does way more than a box of this size should. to be honest I would have 3/4 of them if I had the volume. If you can afford to buy it outright do it! then its 100% down to you to get the right work, small number of clicks or not, its all about margin, don't kill the machine with 100,000's of clicks if your not making money! if you have found a niche that makes you good profit keep running 2k per month.

To me the most important thing is 'Service' make sure you have some good Xerox engineers in your area, we are blessed with two top guys, who know their stuff and response times are 2nd to none.

What issue with the 2nd BTR are you having?

Also, which RIP do you have?