What happened to training rant?

[Craig]

Reading some threads I start wondering out loud, why does it seem like we (the owners/operators) find information about how to run our equipment or make it perform better through some backhanded way like a forum? Why can't the manufactures/dealers do a better job of knowing how and why their equipment operates the way it does, and actually teach the customer how to make the device perform to it's best capability?

I'm not complaining about the forum.... it's performing like it should as far as sharing what we know with others, and I love it. Could I be the only one who feels like the manufactures/dealers talk the talk but don't walk the walk?

I have had my 8000AP installed for 2 years this month, I pay Xerox almost $100,000.00/year in lease and maintenance and I have seen my Color Specialist 1 time since the install, when I have a question he never follows threw or I get some half assed answer. What happened to customer service? Maybe it's just me, but from reading the threads I will venture it isn't!

 

[Infinity]

All I can say is Amen.

 

[dynamicprinter]

Craig,
All I can say is I agree with you 100%, since 2001 I've dealt with Canon, Ikon and now Xerox and all I can say is that the customer service sucks - training what training. I had a lot less headaches when I ran just an AB Dick press on stationery and forms.

 

[UberTech]

I think at the moment this is an overwhelming request. You would almost need a consultant to come out and figure out who needs to give you the training!

How do I devise a training course for a machine? Too much is not enough and too little is ample.

For example, we install a machine in an offset shop who have decided to go digital. They get the most knowledgeable person who knows something about computers to have some training. So I will go thru the tray registration, gradation adjustments spot colour editing etc. How much do you think will go in? Probably about 10%.

I had a client where I told them solution to a particular problem. I thought this was a critical step that they should understand so I reinforced the information, twice. The following day they rang complaining about the same problem, I again discussed the solution. 4 hours later our trainer rings me on site looking for a solution to the same problem at the same client.

Install the same machine in hardened digital copy centre and in about 5 minutes they are telling what the Canon does better, in their humble opinion.

Where does the training end and start? Does it stop at the RIP or do I train you how to get the best out of indesign or do a mail merge in word?

Some tips.

Be Specific
What does it mean when you say ‘please give me training’? On what? Magic buttons you don’t know about? Be specific when you ask for training, tell them what you want training on. In my experience I have never heard of a company charging for more training on a product they sell in this industry. Who wins when you know more about your machine? Everyone!

Be focused when being trained
Set time aside for training. When I do my training I get REALLY annoyed when I’m training and someone interrupts about some irrelevant job. I loose my place and the trainee pretty much flushes everything I just told them. Request to have training in the sales office so you are 100% focused on what you are doing. I have found that people I have trained like this have a significant advantage to those trained onsite.

Be/Have a dedicated operator
Digital is supposed to make life easier, right? When it comes to the inkjet at home your probably right. When comes to selling something your printing it is not. Your desktop designer is not a good printer. They are a good designer. People who have a dedicated operator are dedicated to digital and reap its rewards. Why? Because they understand every facet of the machine and get the best out of it, rather than near enough is good enough.

Get involved
Lots of trainers aren’t trainers. They are technical people who know a fair bit about what they sell. So their training skills aren’t honed to training. When you’re having training ask to try what is being shown yourself. Tell them when you don’t understand what is being taught. Otherwise you may as well watch the training on a powerpoint.

Tell me what you expect from training
Man I would love to know. I could spend days training you on driving a c6501 but I wouldn’t know diddly if what I am teaching you is what you want to know. So list some stuff here and let everyone know what you find lacking in your training. We could all learn something.

 

[lfelton]

I've also found Xerox quite poor when it comes to training. Very little available and trainers who are more used to office environments than commercial printers. Don't get me wrong, I like the machines and their engineers are very good, but the training is not so good.

KM have been better so far. Reasonable on site basic operator training and then off site advanced operator training courses available regularly (that must SAVE them money in the long term surely?) plus a colour specialist available for training who actually knows what he's talking about. I believe they also run advanced RIP training, but I've never sent one of my guys on that.

I'm sure that the situation is probably different in different countries and also whether you are a "direct" account with the manufacturer or through a reseller, but the above IMO is the absolute MINUMUM.

I think Xerox have been operating in an environment with too little real competition for a long time and that has made them complacent. If you read their financial statements for previous years and see the amount that the "graphic arts" sector has contributed to Xerox's overall profitability, that is a real eye opener to where the money really ends up in this industry.

 

[dynamicprinter]

First I think that using the machine as a printer, I was given the 123 on how to use the machine as a copier but the person knew nothing about the print end of the machines. The print drivers and RIP's vary from machine to machine.

Second maybe would be the strengths of the machine and maybe what to avoid.
Example 1: registration would be a good thing to know.
Example 2: color would be another area. some cmyk colors don't reproduce well with toner based machines. sometimes leaving rgb looks better.
Example 3: maybe some color management, I heard the more your into color management the better price you can charge. I wasn't even shown how to use the color calibration until a technician came in on a service call.

This is just my opinion, I brought in 2 Xerox machines 1 color DC252 and 1 4595 b/w.
After the first week I was told that I no longer had a sales rep and now had a virtual rep in Canada. It's nothing against the company but if you don't support what you sell how can us smaller guys grow to buy the bigger and faster machines. My game plan was to move up to a 700 in 3-4 years which at the present rate probably won't happen.

 

[mattbeals]

In my dealIngs with Xerox and Konica specifically the support people are geared to office environments and only their software products. Which at the best leaves much to be desired. However the technicians have proven to be the most valuable information source *if* youbare able to articulate and demonstrate your needs or issues.

I tried getting on board with Konica here in the Seattle area but had no response to phone calls, in person visits and emails. Kind of surprising to me. The people they had training customers in print for pay didn't understand their clients needs or how things really work with their own products in print for pay. They also had no clue about workflow or color. It's a real shame. As someone hear already said they spent a lot of time with trial and error or here trying to figure out some of these issues. If the vendors had people on staff that could actuly handle this they might see a bump in customer loyalty and sales of professional services. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a consultant. I just help their clients solve problems...

 

[Craig]

Uber here is what I want to know.
I have this new box that was delivered with all the bells and whistles. After you get it assembled and running to your specs. someone else will attempt to "train" me on how to "use" the machine. Basically they tell you how to turn it off and on, send a job through the RIP, calibrate.... you know the "basics". Now that's fine and dandy if you are an office environment running the same 20lb bond paper day in and day out, and probably all they will ever do with it, the basics.

Now lets move to a print for pay or production world. We will squeeze that machine for everything it is worth. We don't always have the option of running the same paper all the time, many times it's based on the customers needs. There are for the lack of a better description "advanced" settings that never get touched on. For instance I have custom profiles, there are settings for the 2nd BTB... what do these settings do and why would I adjust them one way or the other? What about DMax settings, decurler E settings.... whatever it may be on your brand. Maybe these settings could make my life easier when I need to make the CQ a little better or the guy running postpress equipment happier.

Now here is the kicker for the manufactures/dealers.... IF you are selling the crap have someone with the ability to answer a damn question with some sort of intelligence on staff. Most of these issues could be resolved with a simple phone call... "I'm having this CQ issue what should I try". No need to waste a techs time with a service call, most of the time with my experience they wouldn't know anything about a specific setting anyway. They are trained how to make it function with the baseline paper, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[dynamicprinter]

What gets me is I 'm not even close to using my machines to the max, yet dealers keep coming in to try and sell me a new machine.

 

[UberTech]

Uber here is what I want to know.
I have this new box that was delivered with all the bells and whistles. After you get it assembled and running to your specs. someone else will attempt to "train" me on how to "use" the machine. Basically they tell you how to turn it off and on, send a job through the RIP, calibrate.... you know the "basics". Now that's fine and dandy if you are an office environment running the same 20lb bond paper day in and day out, and probably all they will ever do with it, the basics.

Now lets move to a print for pay or production world. We will squeeze that machine for everything it is worth. We don't always have the option of running the same paper all the time, many times it's based on the customers needs. There are for the lack of a better description "advanced" settings that never get touched on. For instance I have custom profiles, there are settings for the 2nd BTB... what do these settings do and why would I adjust them one way or the other? What about DMax settings, decurler E settings.... whatever it may be on your brand. Maybe these settings could make my life easier when I need to make the CQ a little better or the guy running postpress equipment happier.

Now here is the kicker for the manufactures/dealers.... IF you are selling the crap have someone with the ability to answer a damn question with some sort of intelligence on staff. Most of these issues could be resolved with a simple phone call... "I'm having this CQ issue what should I try". No need to waste a techs time with a service call, most of the time with my experience they wouldn't know anything about a specific setting anyway. They are trained how to make it function with the baseline paper, nothing more, nothing less.

Obviously I can't help you Craig but I have created a book that has examples of print defects and the settings to change on the engine to 'solve' the image defect. I would say with some certainty that the technical people don't know why they change a setting to make something work. They know they change this and that happens. What would work for one 300gsm stock may not work for another, you need to be a chemist to work it out with paper. Even enviroment has a bearing. For example we have a particulary nasty banding problem that only appears in certain humidity, it's easy to fix change one setting. Tomorrow the fault may not appear. Fact is we have a solution. If I were to train you I probably could't manifest the fault. So I made the book with examples.

 

[BillJ]

UberTech has stated things from the tech side very well. We can't know how to handle every combination of stock, hardware, firmware, rip, and application software. Sometimes there is a combination that "should" be possible but just won't work on one system but may work on another system configured exactly the same. Usually a work around is possible but may require doing things a different way. I have run into customers who refuse to do things other than "their way", even though the fix is usually a simple change.

 

[sweatyclimber]

Craig,
All I can say is I agree with you 100%, since 2001 I've dealt with Canon, Ikon and now Xerox and all I can say is that the customer service sucks - training what training. I had a lot less headaches when I ran just an AB Dick press on stationery and forms.

That is why going to Japan inc or a 1-800-Hope service model will loose long term to your local Global Imaging dealer... I offer to try them, you'll be more than impressed! And for the prices that some of you are paying you could virtually buy an entire training class from a Global dealer. They're the ones who can give you the custom, individuallized service that focus's on you first. And if I'm wrong, PM me & I'll do what I can to help ensure it's fixed for you.

 

[sweatyclimber]

I think at the moment this is an overwhelming request. You would almost need a consultant to come out and figure out who needs to give you the training!

How do I devise a training course for a machine? Too much is not enough and too little is ample.

For example, we install a machine in an offset shop who have decided to go digital. They get the most knowledgeable person who knows something about computers to have some training. So I will go thru the tray registration, gradation adjustments spot colour editing etc. How much do you think will go in? Probably about 10%.

I had a client where I told them solution to a particular problem. I thought this was a critical step that they should understand so I reinforced the information, twice. The following day they rang complaining about the same problem, I again discussed the solution. 4 hours later our trainer rings me on site looking for a solution to the same problem at the same client.

Install the same machine in hardened digital copy centre and in about 5 minutes they are telling what the Canon does better, in their humble opinion.

Where does the training end and start? Does it stop at the RIP or do I train you how to get the best out of indesign or do a mail merge in word?

Some tips.

Be Specific
What does it mean when you say ‘please give me training’? On what? Magic buttons you don’t know about? Be specific when you ask for training, tell them what you want training on. In my experience I have never heard of a company charging for more training on a product they sell in this industry. Who wins when you know more about your machine? Everyone!

Be focused when being trained
Set time aside for training. When I do my training I get REALLY annoyed when I’m training and someone interrupts about some irrelevant job. I loose my place and the trainee pretty much flushes everything I just told them. Request to have training in the sales office so you are 100% focused on what you are doing. I have found that people I have trained like this have a significant advantage to those trained onsite.

Be/Have a dedicated operator
Digital is supposed to make life easier, right? When it comes to the inkjet at home your probably right. When comes to selling something your printing it is not. Your desktop designer is not a good printer. They are a good designer. People who have a dedicated operator are dedicated to digital and reap its rewards. Why? Because they understand every facet of the machine and get the best out of it, rather than near enough is good enough.

Get involved
Lots of trainers aren’t trainers. They are technical people who know a fair bit about what they sell. So their training skills aren’t honed to training. When you’re having training ask to try what is being shown yourself. Tell them when you don’t understand what is being taught. Otherwise you may as well watch the training on a powerpoint.

Tell me what you expect from training
Man I would love to know. I could spend days training you on driving a c6501 but I wouldn’t know diddly if what I am teaching you is what you want to know. So list some stuff here and let everyone know what you find lacking in your training. We could all learn something.

Fantastic post.... In all cases the more things that are spelled out the more you'll be able to get out of your purchase.

 

[Craig]

Uber.... don't take this as a tech rant, it is not. More from a training/color specialist point. They promise the world but never seem to deliver. I remember 3 years ago I had to explain to a Gorden Flesch specialist what a PPML file was and he was suppose to be a "trainer" in the front end. He asked whay would anyone use that file for output????

It just seems that we (forum members) are finding out more on these machines from each other or by accident than what the geeks that install them know.

 

[zen the printer]

lol i totally agree with craig im new in printing only abt half a year old bt im already head of prodution i went n had train on the km c6501 bt all they showd me is tht it can print thts about it iv figured hw to do double sided prints on my own which was a pain in the begining coz of registration i figured hw to install the drivers on a mac and how to push the machine to its limits nw whenever the bastards sell a machine and are asked about it they call me coz on one else knws hw to work it.. i hate calling for service coz they take there time honestly there fucking idiots there "trainng" does nothing to benefit the consumer..n im still learning otherwise the machine is nt to bad once you get a hold of things..

 

[UberTech]

Well your appalling grammer proves anyone can drive one of these machines.

 

[zen the printer]

ouch thts rough i flunked english bt iv studded eng. n passd its the country i am in and to the economic crisis im nt fixing machines were nt to keen on english as well..n i havent dis agreed the machine is good bt the training and the service is nt helpful its jus through trial n error tht iv picked up on how to work it..basically what im trying to say is the trainers are as useless as the sales people all they do is set it up n talk bt have no clue on how to work it n if they really gave a shit they as well could have learned..

 

[J]

"im new in printing only abt half a year old"

Why they would put someone who is only six moths old in charge of production is beyond me.

J

 

[zen the printer]

work harder

work harder

Why they would put someone who is only six moths old in charge of production is beyond me.

J

coz i work 24 hours 7 days a week thts y.. if theres work they im always there i sleep in my office sometimes ever tried working hard? iv struggled my whole life n nw im beginin to see the benifits..

 

[Milo Wilson]

Reading some threads I start wondering out loud, why does it seem like we (the owners/operators) find information about how to run our equipment or make it perform better through some backhanded way like a forum? Why can't the manufactures/dealers do a better job of knowing how and why their equipment operates the way it does, and actually teach the customer how to make the device perform to it's best capability?

I'm not complaining about the forum.... it's performing like it should as far as sharing what we know with others, and I love it. Could I be the only one who feels like the manufactures/dealers talk the talk but don't walk the walk?

I have had my 8000AP installed for 2 years this month, I pay Xerox almost $100,000.00/year in lease and maintenance and I have seen my Color Specialist 1 time since the install, when I have a question he never follows threw or I get some half assed answer. What happened to customer service? Maybe it's just me, but from reading the threads I will venture it isn't!

That's why independent techs like myself make a good living...lol. I have trained so many customers using Xerox, on self maintenance and the use of their Fiery/Creo/DocuSp that I get a lot of business.