Why is the Konica $1/2 the xerox

[benny123]

Resolution is not a factor but if you want to split hairs the 8000 can address 3 different sections of each dot so effectively is 1200x3600. I would keep with xeroxs new tag line "let's not talk about resolution". As for clicks, if your dealer is adopting the coverage based click charges you will be able to match offset on some of your jobs.

How widespread is coverage based click charges in the USA? We are not seeing this in Australia as yet. Can the KM detect coverage somehow and charge accordingly? Or how does the dealer charge or the customer understand the cost of the specific job.

Makes sense to go down this model imo.

 

[RKS]

Does anyone know the full click charges for: Canon 7010vp, KM800, Ricoh 901s?

 

[Joyous]

Xerox is still considered "The Status Quo". As others have mentioned, they simply price their machines far higher than the rest, with no actual increase in quality or service, and can get away with it for no reason other than the fact they're Xerox.

A lot of companies are getting smart with their digital and just like the people in these threads, put 3 KM 6501s in a room and keep them running at Max capacity instead of grabbing a Xerox and hoping it works properly. The company I'm in at the moment does the same - Almost 2 million colour clicks and 4 mil B/W on 3 different machines. Due to the fact they're far far cheaper, you can literally run them into the ground.

Alternatively, Canon is more affordable and holds ground well to the Xerox. Those of you who switched to Ricoh, well.. I'm sure you regret it for totally understandable reasons. Ricoh is neither cheap, effective, nor productive

 

[salecha]

Greetings,
Which model of KM you purchased.What is the monthly volume you do in Black & Color.Which rip you purchased. Thanks.
Salecha

As someone else mentioned, why IS XEROX charging TWICE as much. Do your research, spend time with each machine and see if it is justified. I did and went with KM.

 

[salecha]

Greetings, I dont agree with your comment about Ricoh. Ricoh 901 is atleast 30% cheaper than Canon C7010. Color Click charge is 10% cheaper & Black Click charge is half of C7010.It is also 30% faster.
Now Heidelberg & Ricoh as well as Kodak & Konica jointly will give still better competition to Duopoly of Xerox & Canon. After the above announcements, Canon has dropped their Click charges by 10% & box price by 16%. Hopefully New & existing customers of Xerox & Canon will get better value.
We the buyers should refuse to buy without price protection agreement. We should not give Price increase in click charges more than inflation in our economy. When Print prices are dropping, we can't afford to pay more for click charges.
Salecha

Xerox is still considered "The Status Quo". As others have mentioned, they simply price their machines far higher than the rest, with no actual increase in quality or service, and can get away with it for no reason other than the fact they're Xerox.

A lot of companies are getting smart with their digital and just like the people in these threads, put 3 KM 6501s in a room and keep them running at Max capacity instead of grabbing a Xerox and hoping it works properly. The company I'm in at the moment does the same - Almost 2 million colour clicks and 4 mil B/W on 3 different machines. Due to the fact they're far far cheaper, you can literally run them into the ground.

Alternatively, Canon is more affordable and holds ground well to the Xerox. Those of you who switched to Ricoh, well.. I'm sure you regret it for totally understandable reasons. Ricoh is neither cheap, effective, nor productive

 

[Joyous]

Click charges are relative mostly to your dealers - If you get a good deal then bully for you, Canon and Xerox in general will try to stick to the very high end of the price scale and then whittle you down from there, but only if you ask for it.

Most ricoh users I've talked to have been unhappy with their machines and switched in the last few years, so it's surprising to hear a positive opinion about it, maybe the c901 is changing things, since I haven't heard many bad things about it.

 

[GregNac19]

Price increase

Price increase

Since we are talking click rates if you buy a Xerox you need to get the clicks fixed. Their new language about anual price increases will read "Price Increase". What I mean is NO MAXIMUM. Xerox can go up 15-50% every year if they want to. Last year they went up the full 10% which is current contract's maximum. I worked for Xerox for 8 years and it never went higher than 4%.
I just wanted to give a heads up to the possible price drops with the gotcha in the background.

 

[graficworx]

My biggest suggestion when looking for any machine, be it digital, offset, or a paper cutter is what are your service options? Locally Xerox has about 20 service techs, while Canon only has 4. Toshiba has about 20 as well. KM and Ricoh have none. If a Xerox or Toshiba machine went down I could get it repaired in hours, whereas Canon would be a few days. Also, does the service provider stock parts locally? If you have to wait 2-3 days for a part, that 3 day repair became a week. You may pay less, but what service do you get? Do they offer a repair window guarantee?

 

[Keith]

Sounds like we're all victims of our own complaints about customers: PRICE! PRICE! PRICE! I think the reason why Xerox charges so much is because they try to sell value... which is how we should be selling. I am just echoing what I read in the trade magazines.

 

[arossetti]

I recently swithed from Xerox to KM. You can see all of my posts regarding the reason for the switch if you look back.

The price difference between the 2 companies is astonishing.

For example, I had been running a Xerox DC7002 (which is a P.O.S. by the way) and it had a price tag of approx. $250K. That was just the machine and the CREO RIP, no finishers. The click charge was about a nickel for a color click.

I am currently running a brand new KM6501, with a high capacity feeder, a high capacity stacker, a saddle stich unit (up to 200 pages w/ face trim), that also half folds and trifolds nested sheets. All run from basically the same CREO RIP that I had on the Xerox. It is a little bit slower, but it's not obvious b/c of the stacker. The sticker price on that entire set-up is approx $70K. the click charge is about the same, at a nickel.

So bottom line is I could put about 3 of these KM set-ups in for aout the same price as a worthless Xerox machine that can't hold consistent color.

I believe the KM8000 base sticker price is around $110K-$120K, wich is way cheaper than the base X800/1000 sticker, which i beleive to be closer to $400K. Even the X DC8000AP is about $350K, and I feel bad for anyone that is stuck running that hunk of junk.

I have both Xerox and KM gear in my shop for a total of over 10 machines. I've had an 8000ap and replaced it with a x800. The prices you are throwing out there are pretty far off the mark. Those are sticker prices and if that is what you were/would pay...I don't know what to tell you.

For the reason why we went with a x800 over the KM8000 as the replacement to the DC8000 is because of the "network". Both machines do the same thing, print onto paper - we rather pay the extra for the support we get from Xerox and all there resources. We like our KM equipment but the UI is unfinshed compared to Xerox and we seem to run into small issues like connectivity problems through our network and communication problems with our creo on the KM side. Issues that Xerox has worked out over years of doing business in our industry. We also like that all of our production equipment black ink to color can use the same server interface with FreeFlow. These were our reasons. They may not work for your shop but it worked for ours.

 

[salecha]

Can you please share more info on coverage based click charges. Thanks.
Salecha

Resolution is not a factor but if you want to split hairs the 8000 can address 3 different sections of each dot so effectively is 1200x3600. I would keep with xeroxs new tag line "let's not talk about resolution". As for clicks, if your dealer is adopting the coverage based click charges you will be able to match offset on some of your jobs.

 

[mogrsi]

Recently I've read that for every $ spent to produce a print you will pay 6$ for prepress-binding-invoice-etc.
I think that finding the lowest charge-per-click is a false problem: the real issue is adding value to the prints produced and optimize workflow.
Imho I would prefer a company offering me possibilities to earn more, not only to save more.
People at Xerox are doing a good job from this point of view, maybe this is the reason why their machine are 'a little' bit expensive: since 2003 they have released iGen, dc7xxx-5xxx, dc2xx, 700, cp1000/800, etc., while the competitors released 1 or 2 models...
When you buy Xerox you also buy R&D.
Of course this can not be interesting for everybody or for every environment.

 

[Mark]

Xerox is ripping you off, paying for the name

 

[OutSourceD]

Recently I've read that for every $ spent to produce a print you will pay 6$ for prepress-binding-invoice-etc.
I think that finding the lowest charge-per-click is a false problem: the real issue is adding value to the prints produced and optimize workflow.
Imho I would prefer a company offering me possibilities to earn more, not only to save more.
People at Xerox are doing a good job from this point of view, maybe this is the reason why their machine are 'a little' bit expensive: since 2003 they have released iGen, dc7xxx-5xxx, dc2xx, 700, cp1000/800, etc., while the competitors released 1 or 2 models...
When you buy Xerox you also buy R&D.
Of course this can not be interesting for everybody or for every environment.

Your post is obtuse. You must work for Xerox or you have completely succumbed to their deceitful marketing. The additional money you will spend with Xerox on equipment and clicks could NEVER be parlayed into additional profits. Those marketing cd"s and DVD"s they wave under your nose are USELESS . Get that bunky? In the end, USELESS! Buy a less expensive machine, insist on a 4 cent click, and go it on your own. You"ll be so much better off.

 

[JayDA]

Buy a less expensive machine, insist on a 4 cent click, and go it on your own. You"ll be so much better off.

Yes, but are those 4 cent clicks 2400 dpi?

YouTube - hizbub PRESS C8000 vs. Smearox 800

 

[mogrsi]

no, they are probably 1200x1200, but with 8 bit you can believe they are 32cent...

Believe me or not, the future of digital printing is in innovation of both printed products and hardware, not only in reducing the cost-per-click.

Just an example: Apple is a leader not only for IT but for all industry, and yes they are selling 'the name', but look at the innovation, ideas, passion and great marketing behind the name.
You can not agree with it: ok, buy a cheap chinese, obtuse and annoying box, it works the same.