Pantone colour changing mid document on Versant 2100

[wonderings]

We have a customer that does a lot of training manuals, never had an issue with their files till today. It is a PDF, 8x10. I drop it in a hotfolder specifically for jobs like this, imposes 2 up on a 11x17 with crop marks. There is a pantone used for these boxes that tell the reader what section they are in, like tabs. Well on this job it is the right colour for most of the job, then it will go wonky, what should be a greenish colour turns into blue. Text that should be blue (a pantone blue) goes white. I cannot figure it out. I can convert the whole document to CMYK, but then the green does not look right, the machine is profiled for that green. I tried making a new profile for the pantone colour, did some light adjustments and re-ripped same issue occurs. I tried ripping on an old Xerox and it does not happen on our DC260, but that machine is old and slow and not one we use for production. This is all happening on our Versant 2100 with command workstation. Anyone have this issue before and seen anything like it? I cannot make heads or tales. I think it is an issue with the Xerox itself as it does not happen on the 260. On a deadline as they came back because I missed it the first time around so need to re-print and get it back to them tomorrow. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Drop the PDF into CWS and use the impose function and find your template from there. This should solve wonky HotFolders issues.

 

[wonderings]

Drop the PDF into CWS and use the impose function and find your template from there. This should solve wonky HotFolders issues.

The hotfolder is not the issue, the issue is the colour changing in the middle of the run. I have tried removing Fiery impose from the equation, imposing in another program, same result. Attached is a screen shot showing what happens and what it should look like:

 

[Guest]

Just the one machine doing it= possible machine not calibrating itself during the print run? This drastic a shift would normally be a call into service- bad board or something weird. Color profile being used? And these color blocks are all the same cmyk build or Pantone? Not inter-mixed with "C" or "U"? Can you send as a PDF X1a? Last time calibrated? Pretty crazy!

 

[wonderings]

Color profile being used? And these color blocks are all the same cmyk build or Pantone? Not inter-mixed with "C" or "U"? Can you send as a PDF X1a? Last time calibrated? Pretty crazy!

We just have one profile we use, works for us. The colour in question is a pantone colour (382 C). I have checked the makeup, it is 20% of 382 C, no other colours involved. I calibrated this morning around 8 am, tried running this job again, had the issue so ran calibration again, same problem.

I have not tried converting to PDF X1a, I just use the PDF they supplied, been doing that for years with no issues with other jobs. I did go back to previous versions of this manual and this looks to be the first time they have used the tabs with pantone colours, previously it was a CMYK makeup. I did my own test, made similar looking green tabs, 20% of the pantone colour with text in the box. Printed fine. I also took an offending page and ripped it apart in illustrator, cannot see anything wonky, just a box with rounded corners that is 20% tint of the pantone.

As I mentioned in my original post it appeared to RIP fine on our DC260. I am going to print one off on the 260. If it prints fine there then it leads me to believe it is something on the Versant that is not liking this file.

Prints fine on the DC260. So not sure what to think now. Problem with the RIP? I have restarted everything, one of the first things I did, recalibrate, even tried a different colour profile that was on the machine, same result.

 

[Guest]

Wow, I feel your pain! If it were the RIP wouldn't it be off on the very first print, not doing it halfway through the run? I'm thinking it's the machine itself and it sounds like you've tried most of the obvious stuff.

 

[DYP]

Have you cleaned/vacuumed the transfer belt density sensors underneath the left side of the drum roller drawer? This should be done first.

Have you checked/adjusted the Secondary Voltage Transfer? Use the auto adjustment.

 

[wonderings]

Have you cleaned/vacuumed the transfer belt density sensors underneath the left side of the drum roller drawer? This should be done first.

Have you checked/adjusted the Secondary Voltage Transfer? Use the auto adjustment.

I have not done either of those. I do regularly run the cleaning cycle on the 2100, at least once every 2 days. Would this ONLY effect 1 pantone colour? It is only one place that is effected, the tabs on the edge of the sheet that you can see in the screen shot, nothing else in the document changes. The transfer belt I believe was replaced a month ago I think we had a few issues where new parts came in.

 

[DYP]

Some things I can think of that might contribute to color changing over the run would be density sensors on above the transfer belt, or the Secondary Voltage Transfer is set right on the edge of what is usable and the paper has just enough variation (or even affected by temperature/humidity in the transfer area) that might cause this. It may only be noticeable in one color.

Is that color used else where on the sheet, and if so does it vary there as well?

Also how old is the 2nd BTR?

The cleaning cycle on the 2100 is just for the fuser belt as I don't know any other cleaning cycle.

I would defiantly run the auto adjustment for the Secondary Voltage Transfer.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Check to make sure the PMS value in the RIP's library is set correctly? I think you can print out samples.

Also RIP'ing with APPE enabled or disabled depending upon current settings may rectify it.

Under the color tab, do you have substitute colors checked?

It sounds like a setting in the PDF/RIP combination, not any parts of the V2100.

 

[pippip]

Could you eliminate the rip by running the pages in the reverse order, or even the same page over and over?

 

[Stickman42]

Your description and screen shots imply that this is definitely NOT a printer issue, but a RIP issue. Obviously you would have done this if you could, but how about imposing outside the CWS with something like Quite Imposing?

 

[Craig]

Impose outside of the RIP and print the file through Acrobat. See if you get the same results. Or print through Acrobat into Held que an impose in Fiery Impose.

 

[jrsc]

One of two easy things will probably fix that.

1. Either use the APPE option if you aren't or turn it off if you are. It's the checkbox in the upper left of the job properties in command workstation.

2. Open your file in impose and save as a flat file instead of a dbp. Sometimes those imposed files cause weird rip issues that saving as a flat file fixes.

If neither of those work give the file to your Xerox rep and tell them to send it to their fiery rep for testing.

 

[DYP]

Well on this job it is the right colour for most of the job, then it will go wonky, what should be a greenish colour turns into blue. Text that should be blue (a pantone blue) goes white.

Right colour for for most of the job. How could that be a RIP issue? Once rasterized how could it change after most of the job is printed?

 

[wonderings]

I think APPE option is on by default, completely forgot about it, something I will try when I have the time.

For those suggesting imposing outside of CWS, I have done that with the same results (using Imposition Studio Pro). I do print other jobs with the colour, covers for this manual and others use the same pantone and print fine, never had an issue, mind you the runs are much smaller.

I did check the values for the PMS colours, but that would change the colour universally. The job printed parts of it fine and other parts it was a mess, either missing, or changed to blue. I did contact a Xerox colour expert that I have dealt with in the past and see what he has to say. It is very peculiar. I had the client resend the PDF with the pantone colour converted to a specific mixture of CMYK to get the colour we have had in previous manuals. Wherever they changed to a CMYK printed fine, but there was a few places that it was now a spot colour WL Green, that was a CMYK makeup, the same as the other parts of the document, just had the spot colour name. Those spot colours had the same issue. So it is not a pantone colour issue. I did convert the whole document to CMYK and it kept the right values so was able to get the job done.

This is so peculiar, and so far only happens with this one job only on our Versant 2100. As I mentioned before it printed fine, original file with pantones, on our DC260. So the problem is specific to the Versant 2100.

 

[Stickman42]

Right colour for for most of the job. How could that be a RIP issue? Once rasterized how could it change after most of the job is printed?

I believe the OP meant that the color was right for most of the RIPped job. Look at his screen shots. They show page previews, not printed sheets.

 

[wonderings]

Ok so the issue was indeed APPE. I unchecked the box and re-ripped it. Used preview and everything looked as it should. Been ages since I unchecked it, completely forgot about that option when dealing with PDF issues on digital.

I leave it on by default because I found more problems without it on and have not had to uncheck it over a year of basically problem free printing. Will have to make note of that next time this comes around. Not sure if there was any recent APPE updates, I know I did some updates not to long ago, but cannot remember what they were.

 

[namelessentity]

Is the pantone being called out over any kind of transparency or custom blending? I've found our printer reacts poorly with pantone call outs and any kind of custom blending. We'll usually get weird white boxes/borders or things will just print entirely wrong. Converting to cmyk always fixes the problem. There's probably a better "real" fix, like making it PDF X-4 or something, but I usually don't have that kind of patience for things that come up so rarely.

 

[wonderings]

Is the pantone being called out over any kind of transparency or custom blending? I've found our printer reacts poorly with pantone call outs and any kind of custom blending. We'll usually get weird white boxes/borders or things will just print entirely wrong. Converting to cmyk always fixes the problem. There's probably a better "real" fix, like making it PDF X-4 or something, but I usually don't have that kind of patience for things that come up so rarely.

It is simply a pantone filled box with rounded corners. Nothing above it or below it, no transparencies, just a 20% tint. I use this same pantone in other jobs for them and never have an issue, not sure why this one is the issue. And it is not just pantones, they had a spot colour for the same green, a CMYK makeup and that gave problems as well. No problems when I unchecked APPE.

It did not give the same problems when I converted to CMYK in Acrobat, but the colours were way off from what they should look like. I have customer pantone colours adjusted on our Versant, so prefer to have spot and pantones knowing it will always match the next time around. I will just have to watch for this when this job comes again. First problem I have had with APPE in probably 2 years.