C6501 Issues

[GregNac19]

Spoken like a true Xerox authorized agent.

The samples given to us by various dealers after asking them to match up to offset work shows otherwise. No marketing spin for you!

I have sold to the print shop world with this machine on the basis that the press work would decrease and digitial printing would increase. I let the customer bring over 10 jobs to print with the customer's paper. They loved it.
However, I know that quality is 100% subjective. I will say the DC700 is the new sliced bread though.

 

[gig0]

However, I know that quality is 100% subjective. I will say the DC700 is the new sliced bread though.

If by subjective you mean bias, then you would be correct.

It's gotten to the point where you need a shovel to read through the marketing bullshit here.

 

[Sharp Dot]

henderd,

drawkward is correct about the registration being better on the 700 (1mm) than the 260 (2-3mm approx).
There are many other improvements worth looking at. Decurlers, Lead edge sensor, low melt toner, skew, perpendicularity, magnification adjustment.

I am a former commercial printer of 14 years, pressman for 3 prior to that. I now sell for Xerox. I recently sold a 700 where we were more expensive but it came down to the fact that the customer felt the quality of our output was considerably better than the KM C6501. I have seen very good output and lousy output from KM samples. But what struck me was the difference in clarity in the fine detail.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[gig0]

yup, thats believable.

 

[aqa-man]

Ifelton; I'm interested in what 'other problems' you had with KM6501; we've just bought and rejected one for various quality reasons; we had blade-dislodging problems, banding (with a Creo, strangely), spots in a line... are these associated with the older models, or also with the 6501"e" do you think? Also, what is the Faci/ System 7?? can anyone say please. The image quality of the KM is brilliant though in many other respects... its brighter colour than anything else, very rich deep colour, highly controllable with the Creo, and very flat; registration good as well with correct procedures.

 

[lfelton]

Ifelton; I'm interested in what 'other problems' you had with KM6501; we've just bought and rejected one for various quality reasons; we had blade-dislodging problems, banding (with a Creo, strangely), spots in a line... are these associated with the older models, or also with the 6501"e" do you think? Also, what is the Faci/ System 7?? can anyone say please. The image quality of the KM is brilliant though in many other respects... its brighter colour than anything else, very rich deep colour, highly controllable with the Creo, and very flat; registration good as well with correct procedures.

I'm not knocking KM as we're pretty happy (now) with the machine, but the problems we haven't been able to fix are:-

- scratching on greeting card stock (240gsm and above), caused by the transport that comes with the high capacity stacker. If you have a KM6501 with the high cap stacker, you can't print greetings cards, full stop.

- RIP bugs, which are not really KM's fault I suppose. They occur very rarely and we can't make it break on demand. Frustrating, but not really a show stopper.

- not really happy with the way that basic level calibration has to be done "by eye" by an engineer when major components are replaced. If done wrong, this can have an impact on colour accuracy and I think there should be a more accurate way to set this.

The blade flips are fixed now, but in truth we got lucky and only had it for a few weeks. We'd had the advanced operator training so were able to fix that ourselves, so an irritation not a biggie (as it was for some people).

Banding is inevitable on every single digital machine on the market today, but RIP options can often help reduce or disguise this. Did your tech trainer go through all this with you? When we were evaluating kit, we found less banding with a 6501 than a X700 or X8000 (one of the reasons we chose it). Difficult to advise you on that one as I don't know what your expectations are, but I can certainly confirm the '01 is no worse than everything else and better than most.

FACI I can help with (cut & paste off of an email from KM)...

FACI Kit:-
GA Premium Edition
Fiery Impose
Fiery Compose
Colour Profiler & Software.

Hope that helps, but bottom line is that if your supplier couldn't get it working properly, you made the right decision in returning the kit.

PS Look on the KM web site for a system 7 spec, basically it's a bundle of the goodies that most print for pay shops need.

 

[aqa-man]

I think that KM shoot themselves in the foot with their "one size fits all" naming of what is really a wide product range. Printers need a System 7 with FACI etc. or similar. Anything else simply does not cut it and trying to save money on the spec is a false economy.

* You've been sold a machine without the heavy duty paper feed unit (PF602? from memory). Without this you really have no hope of getting good "registration" (I'm assuming you don't literally mean screening registration, but either F-T-B registration or sheet to sheet consistency).

All of the above are fixable & I can assure you that on our 6501 System 7 the registration is extremely good over a wide range of stocks.

@Drawkward, you are wrong about colour and I can only assume that the KM dealer getting you samples was not up to the job. We run both machines in daily production, the Xerox with over a million clicks and the KM with about 400K (we've only had it a couple of months). The KM is just in a completely different league in terms of colour accuracy and consistency. We have several other issues with the KM, but the quality of the print is not one of them!

Ifelton; I'm interested in what 'other problems' you had with KM6501; we've just bought and rejected one for various quality reasons; we had blade-dislodging problems, banding (with a Creo, strangely), spots in a line... are these associated with the older models, or also with the 6501"e" do you think? Also, what is the Faci/ System 7?? can anyone say please. The image quality of the KM is brilliant though in many other respects... its brighter colour than anything else, very rich deep colour, highly controllable with the Creo, and very flat; registration good as well with correct procedures.

 

[aqa-man]

The blade flips are fixed now, but in truth we got lucky and only had it for a few weeks. We'd had the advanced operator training so were able to fix that ourselves, so an irritation not a biggie (as it was for some people).

Hope that helps, but bottom line is that if your supplier couldn't get it working properly, you made the right decision in returning the kit.

PS Look on the KM web site for a system 7 spec, basically it's a bundle of the goodies that most print for pay shops need.

Thanks for comments; excellent. We have Creo rather than Fiery, and I think banding is sorted now, dont know how... had a 'patch' fitted??
Its the flipping we mainly bothered with; theres a lot of 'fixes' mentioned on the pro tech site... what method did you use? trimming edges? pulling or removing springs? cutting the corners? changing the blades? using 8050 springs? Is it really something you can fix as a user?
(By the way, where u based? I'm in Lakes, UK)

 

[UberTech]

The blade flipping (IMHO) has been resolved with the DU102C they came out with a B then a modified B now it's C and they seem to be ok now.

The FACI kit is all or none of what was listed. a FACI kit can be one of two things. A dongle to allow you to plug a monitor into the Fiery or a dongle,desk,screen, keyboard etc.

- not really happy with the way that basic level calibration has to be done "by eye" by an engineer when major components are replaced. If done wrong, this can have an impact on colour accuracy and I think there should be a more accurate way to set this.

You mean the offset adjustments? An automatic version of this was programmed in to the machine but you would need the same type of paper they use in the factory to be able to use it. I haven't found this super critical unless you are printing gradients.

 

[lfelton]

The blade flipping (IMHO) has been resolved with the DU102C they came out with a B then a modified B now it's C and they seem to be ok now.

The FACI kit is all or none of what was listed. a FACI kit can be one of two things. A dongle to allow you to plug a monitor into the Fiery or a dongle,desk,screen, keyboard etc.



You mean the offset adjustments? An automatic version of this was programmed in to the machine but you would need the same type of paper they use in the factory to be able to use it. I haven't found this super critical unless you are printing gradients.

IMO the most important bits are the profiler/spectro and the profiling software. All the other bits are useful though.

@UberTech - no, as mentioned before, I am talking about the gamma adjust. Cutting out little holes in bits of paper and comparing colours. Nasty.

Everyone prints gradients!

@aqa-man - the flipping problem hasn't occurred in a long time for us. Are you using the right drums? If you are not being serviced by KM directly and your supplier is using old drums, they need a swift kicking. I don't operate the machine myself, but the operator told me he could fix the problem after the advanced operator course. That's a moot point now, but my guy did find the course very useful and it has cut down on our call out rate. We're pretty pleased with the '01, especially considering it cost less than the upgrade to our fold, stitch & trim line last year. We're in Gloucestershire BTW.

 

[AFFCup]

Need to check the source of mis registration problem!!!

Need to check the source of mis registration problem!!!

I have some experience that I can share with you about this issue.

1) Please ask your Field Service Engineer to check the Firmware version (Only Service Eng can access), the latest firm ware ver now is 4.1, if not pls update the FW first

2) Please check the registration marks of duplex as follow:

- If 4 registration marks between Front and Back are shifted at the same direction (left, right, up or down): please adjust from the Service --> Image position, you can move the image to the direction you want to adjust
- If 4 registration marks between Front and Back are shifted with many direction: do Front and Back adjustment inside the paper setting, on the touch sreen. And check again to monitor improvement.
- If 4 registration marks between Front and Back look like skew: ex 2 registration marks on the top are shifted to the left side and the botton are opposite site, the paper is skew when printing the back side, please adjust the "Registration Loop" inside the paper setting, on the touch panel, you can choose the Front side or Back side you want to adjust.

3) If didnt help, please check the paper stock and confirm the paper side is correct setting

Hope this help to solve your problem.

If need my help, pls feel free to contact me

Digital_Analog_Technology! Cheer!

 

[AFFCup]

Need to check the source of mis registration problem!!!

Need to check the source of mis registration problem!!!

I have some experience that I can share with you about this issue.

1) Please ask your Field Service Engineer to check the Firmware version (Only Service Eng can access), the latest firm ware ver now is 4.1, if not pls update the FW first

2) Please check the registration marks of duplex as follow:

- If 4 registration marks between Front and Back are shifted at the same direction (left, right, up or down): please adjust from the Service --> Image position, you can move the image to the direction you want to adjust
- If 4 registration marks between Front and Back are shifted with many direction: do Front and Back adjustment inside the paper setting, on the touch sreen. And check again to monitor improvement.
- If 4 registration marks between Front and Back look like skew: ex 2 registration marks on the top are shifted to the left side and the botton are opposite site, the paper is skew when printing the back side, please adjust the "Registration Loop" inside the paper setting, on the touch panel, you can choose the Front side or Back side you want to adjust.

3) If didnt help, please check the paper stock and confirm the paper side is correct setting

Hope this help to solve your problem.

If need my help, pls feel free to contact me

Digital_Analog_Technology! Cheer!

 

[ginfay]

AFFCup, Thanks for the suggestions. What firmware are you referring to?

I have had the same skewing problems with my KM6501. When printing duplex, the leading edge crop marks would match (front and back) but the tail end crop marks would be off a few mm. My tech tried to troubleshoot this for 3 days but could not fix the issue. He kept saying that "it's within spec." Which is about 2mm. There are times with 3 corners are registered but the 4th corner is not registering. This seems to be a major problem in my mind.

It may be within spec for KM but not for printers who need accurate registration when printing duplex. I will try your registration loop adjustment to see if I can resolve this issue. For 80% of my jobs, I will not need to worry about this. But for the other 20%, it's a pain in the butt. Especially when cutting full bleed documents.

 

[sweatyclimber]

AFFCup, Thanks for the suggestions. What firmware are you referring to?

I have had the same skewing problems with my KM6501. When printing duplex, the leading edge crop marks would match (front and back) but the tail end crop marks would be off a few mm. My tech tried to troubleshoot this for 3 days but could not fix the issue. He kept saying that "it's within spec." Which is about 2mm. There are times with 3 corners are registered but the 4th corner is not registering. This seems to be a major problem in my mind.

It may be within spec for KM but not for printers who need accurate registration when printing duplex. I will try your registration loop adjustment to see if I can resolve this issue. For 80% of my jobs, I will not need to worry about this. But for the other 20%, it's a pain in the butt. Especially when cutting full bleed documents.

Have you used "Auto Tray Allignment" within the Fiery Command Workstation? That could help.

 

[ginfay]

Are you referring to the "Tray Alignment" check box in the Media tab in the driver settings?

Yes, I check that when I run duplex. It does not seem to make a difference.

 

[sweatyclimber]

no this is in command workstation. It lets you calibrate the tray for the specific paper and helps with skew. Once you've done that, then you'd check the box.

 

[ginfay]

Didn't even know that existed. Let me try that and see if it makes a difference.

Thanks.

 

[AFFCup]

Hi Ginfay,

The lastest firmware now is 4.1

With the C6501, the registration between Front and Back is less than 1mm, I think if you follow the correct procedure for F and B adjsutment, I think less than 1mm is OK (acceptable for offset also 1mm).

Another thing for duplex printing, if the paper weight is too thin (less than 150 gsm), very difficult to get the good registration than from 200gsm to 250 gsm.

Another way to print the duplex is manual printing.
Print the front side first, and print 1 or 2 sheet back side to adjust by manual, after everything OK, continue printing with the back side because 'Wrong + Wrong = True', use the bypass tray because the paper path is smoother than tray 1, 2, 3.

Hope this help

 

[UberTech]

What the hell is this all about? Firmware virsion 4.1?!?!? Firmware versions go 40,41,50. If you have one of these in a production enviroment without an LCT or PF unit your never going to have adequate register, end of story.

If your are having registration issues on lighter stock then the paper is probably shrinking or streching. Use the chart adjustment, this will account for skew and shrinkage. Make a point of getting your tech to show you how to do this, if they don't know tell them to find someone who does. No matter what you feed this adjustment will register your paper without fail.

Once youhave done this store this setting in the paper catalogue.

2mm out of register is ABSOLUTLY not acceptable on this machine.

 

[redridernl]

I've used the chart adjustment before but gave up on it. I make the adjustments, registration is perfect then it goes off again within two to three sheets. Does anyone know why this is happening? This is on a 6500 btw, using a Creo ic-304.