Do you run the Heidelberg SM-52 Anicolor press

[maac]

I would like to talk with a member who has the Heidelberg SM-52 Anicolor press in the shop. And understands the ink unit technology zooneless inking (hot/cold).

 

[Ret Heidelberg Instructor]

What specific kind of information do you need regarding the SM52 Anicolor? Maybe I can help.

 

[maac]

No Title

Thanks for getting back with us.
I work in the prepress Dept, and I am responsible for the plates and the calibration curves. Talking with the pressman on the Anicolor they would like to take the ink dampening up to the mid 60% +or- and cannot the calibration curves are good and the ink densities are good and we have a strong gray balance in the 10%,25%,50% 75% when we calibrate. So we think it may be the strenght of the ink pigment not letting us move up the Dampening systems of the ink. When they try to move up to the mid 55% the color is to dark. Do you know other Anicolor operators who can run their dampening up in the mid 60% +or-. And if so what ink are they using I think it is the Ink.

Thanks
Michael

 

[Ret Heidelberg Instructor]

No Title

There is something that looks odd to me with these high dampening settings. They generally run in the 30 % range for dampening. I will enclose a photo of where the values they were running a press in the training centre in Germany. You should also be using ink that is formulated to run on the Anicolor.

 

[maac]

No Title

Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou This has been like this from the beginning. I could never get the right calibration curves. I think the inks are to dark or the press needs to be reset. In the beginning a Heidelberg color Tech stopped by and was talking about the calibration curves and gave us notes on the cut backs for the color -7% on the Black,cyan,Magenta, and -12% on the yellow. This is our setup now.
If you could look at the (color management forum) I have posted my thoughts there as well and I do not think they know the Anicolor. and how to set up the calibration curves with the -7 7 7% and -12% and they are some of the best.

pdf attached.

Thanks
Michael

 

[maac]

I picked some of these photos up off of the internet to show examples of what I think we should have as exhaust vents for the Anicolor. And what we do not have in our shop. I was told by the press operator that if we have the right size exhaust vents then we could get the water temperature down to your settings is this true?

 

[Ret Heidelberg Instructor]

I have looked at the pictures that you attached and I just want to explain what some of the vents that see are used for. The venting stack that you see in photo 1 and 2 near the delivery is used for exhausting heat, and coating fumes from the hot air used in the operation of the coating unit dryer. The third picture dose not have a stack hooked up.They may just be venting directly into the press room.
The other vents are positioned over the Technotrans units that chills or heats your Anicolor anilox rollers that are in the press. The dampening solution tank is also housed in the same unit. There is a lot of heat that is generated and the company has chosen to vent the heat created outside so as not to heat up the press room
In the training model in Germany you can see the unit standing alone and not vented outside. There was no need to do so in a classroom training situation.
Some of the density values that you have listed for for your inks seem high to me. Generally, in North America density values for Black is 1.75-1.80 Cyan 1.35-1.40
Magenta 1.35 - 1.40 and Yellow 1.05-1.10. This depends on which density scale you are using.
I would suggest that you get all you water dampening rollers checked and set to specs, before you run any calibration form in order to avoid false readings. You can plug in numbers from other sources, but you are better off to establish you own values. If your dampening system is not right that you could fighting a losing battle. The way to change color density over-all is to raise or lower the temperature of the Anilox roller.



room.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I picked some of these photos up off of the internet to show examples of what I think we should have as exhaust vents for the Anicolor. And what we do not have in our shop. I was told by the press operator that if we have the right size exhaust vents then we could get the water temperature down to your settings is this true?

Picture #5 looks like a heat exchanger and that panel should be closed. It does not work properly if the panel is open. With the panel closed, the air would be forced to go through the coils, which I am assuming are cooling this air.

That is the way it looks to me.

 

[maac]

No Title

Thank you for this update. But from (day 1) of the install this is what the technicians put in the press operator can not take the dampening numbers down to your numbers (30%,29%,29%,%30. the chill unit will over heat and shot off. The press operator was not told it should be so low. and the more I read and see it looks like the install was not right. I can not fix my end until the press is set up right.

To my earlier question do you know of someone who has the spec sheet on the recommendations for the vents for the chiller. I think we should start with this.

 

[Ret Heidelberg Instructor]

I am curious. Who installed the Anicolor that is in your shop. Did you by it from Heidelberg or from a used equipment dealer.

 

[maac]

This was a brand new install. Do you know our press room manager and our plant manager? Can you talk with them or have someone talk with then.

I think after they make sure the Anicolor is set up right then we can make sure the calibration curves are right.

Thanks
Michael

 

[Ret Heidelberg Instructor]

I would suggest that your company get your Heidelberg agency involved with this issue. If this is the way the press was was set-up initially and was running fine when you signed off on the press,. then in my opinion something has gone wrong. Get them to troubleshoot the problems that you are having with the high dampening readings and any other issues that you are having.

 

[maac]

This has been this way from day 1 and the press operator was not told it should be so low. If the tech saw the numbers and at that time did not know him self they should be in the 30+or - then later someone should have help. Do you know someone who can call us?

Thanks
Michael

 

[Ret Heidelberg Instructor]

No Title

I did some research on 2 Anicolor machines that I have had previous history and in my opinion you are having a dampening issue with your press. Here are 2 pics off 2 presses taken today and the values at which they are running their ink and their dampening. Is there a Vario option (Hickey Eliminator) on the press and is it selected to be on. By having it on you can reduce the values downward and still print.

 

[maac]

Thank you for all of your help. I have pass this information on to our pressroom manager. He told me that the plant manager has reached out to Heidelberg technical support and they will be coming in with new Inks for the 52 and there technician for the setup of the Anicolor. After they reset the press I will linearize 50% is %50 then fingerprint that press with new calibration curves.

I will keep you up to date.

Thanks
Michael

 

[Jmiyo]

Hi michael, i'm new on the forum and is taking a look at the following issues on the anicolor, i run an anicolor and i have never print with dampening at 50%, it's far too strong, anicolor system is not like conversional press, water balance must be perfect, limit dry print at about 15-20 % dampening with vsrio system on, do u use saphira ink and saphira fount on your press? Does the dampening roller well set, have a check with the pressman before making calibration curves. Thks

 

[Deleted member 16349]

anicolor system is not like conversional press, water balance must be perfect,

Jmiyo, can you comment on what are the problems with the Anicolor press if the water balance is not perfect?

Just curious. Thanks.

 

[maac]

No Title

Thank you Jmiyo:

I have pass this information on to our pressmen. He told me that the settings can not change much or the press will dry up. Here is the photo of the setup they use. He did tell me that he does not use the (dampening with vsrio system) what does that do and should he used this? And no on the (saphira ink and saphira fountain solution) but in the beginning we were with all saphira ink and saphira fountain solution for at least 1 year and this is how the technicians from Heidelberg set the press up in the beginning. The pressmen has tried to make these changes and the press will dry up.

If you can help thanks

Michael

 

[Jmiyo]

As u know, anicolor press has no ink keys, u rise up densities when rising the temperature of the screen roller, when there's too much dampening solution, the excess water will go up on the screen roller and in the ink chamber, the ink will become more liquid, therefore no stability, streak will appear, not roller streak, different kind, sometimes the pressman won't be able to reach the desire density, it's not normal to have temperature at 95% as i've seen in the attachement, 80% to 95% by experience is only for solid printing on an anicolor, the iso 12647-2 can be reach with less temperature with a 10 micron roller

 

[Deleted member 16349]

As u know, anicolor press has no ink keys, u rise up densities when rising the temperature of the screen roller, when there's too much dampening solution, the excess water will go up on the screen roller and in the ink chamber, the ink will become more liquid, therefore no stability, streak will appear, not roller streak, different kind, sometimes the pressman won't be able to reach the desire density, it's not normal to have temperature at 95% as i've seen in the attachement, 80% to 95% by experience is only for solid printing on an anicolor, the iso 12647-2 can be reach with less temperature with a 10 micron roller

Thanks for the feed back. Not surprised about the problems. Back in 2006, I had conversations with Heidelberg about such potential problems with the Anicolor press design. Of course Heidelberg does not listen to anyone and the result is they missed many opportunities to actually make a better press design. They may or may not be stupid but for sure they are closed minded.

Anyhow, I am sure that most of the time your Anicolor runs well. I still believe that it is not the right press design for the future. It is another dead end technical path.