final decision X700 VS C6501

[geoman]

My old DC2060 has "fuser belt technology"

Belt fuser technology in the x800/1000 is vastly different.

 

[geoman]

Thats a sh*tstorm Im not about to start but cosmetically you can tell which is the more substantial unit, open the trays and process section and have a look. End of the day you need to test test test, then, even if one is better than the other you need make sure they have the service to back it up.

KM in OZ is currently getting smashed. Much customer disfatisfaction due to poor tech support. Some quick print shops are exploring their options from other vendors. In OZ its a matter of "you get what you pay for", and even though KM is best price, initially, it does eventually catch up and ends up costing the owners in other ways.

 

[Craig]

Can't say I have seen the curl on paper change at the exit depending on weather, that would be a feature of the X700. In saying that the C6501 bulk trays have dehumidifiers built in, something the big X won't give you.

Like that even works. Just how fast can it pull the humidity from the paper/air. Does it have a drain line for the water or a bed pan to empty? Not sure about your location Uber, but in Ohio we can have 15% humidity in the winter and 70% in the summer, and yes is DOES effect the paper.

As for changing the fuser, I do it on my 8000AP... not user replaceable either, takes 5 minutes at best to swap the hot roller, saves several hours on a tech to show up.

 

[arossetti]

I think its funny that a KM tech is talking down on office products - which the 6500 is just that along with the 700. When KM finally enters the production market with their 8000 then you can wear the big boy pants.

My DC8000, which makes the internals of the 6500 look like a toy - is able to switch a fuser in/out. I have 2 fusers which allows me to avoid down times when one needs to be rebuilt before a tech can get to my location. So to say any operator replaceable fuser makes the product an office machine is bogus as well.

As for your friends with up to 4 fusers I'm not sure why they would do that. I also do not know why that would be confusing. I keep 3, one in the machine, one I use only with 12" paper and a 3rd as a backup. I label them and seem to have no "confusion".

But keep it up Uber.

 

[arossetti]

Like that even works. Just how fast can it pull the humidity from the paper/air. Does it have a drain line for the water or a bed pan to empty? Not sure about your location Uber, but in Ohio we can have 15% humidity in the winter and 70% in the summer, and yes is DOES effect the paper.

As for changing the fuser, I do it on my 8000AP... not user replaceable either, takes 5 minutes at best to swap the hot roller, saves several hours on a tech to show up.

It takes ATLEAST 24 hours for paper to adjust to a new climate - so I guess you have to load your paper into a KM6500 24 hours before it is needed?

 

[lfelton]

Ben, my 2c -

do a thorough technical eval
speak to at least two, preferably three other owners IN YOUR AREA about service
run the numbers (there's plenty of help available if you don't have accounting / business training & experience)
run the numbers (worth mentioning twice, I've seen several small business owners go bust through not understanding this one)

At the end of the day, they're just boxes there to make you money. Don't get distracted by talk of "that's not a real production machine", or similar. If it produces commercially acceptable print, runs reasonably reliably and gives you the best ROI, that's your box. Do your homework and make some money.

 

[UberTech]

Belt fuser technology in the x800/1000 is vastly different.

I am sure it is but elaborate anyway.

KM in OZ is currently getting smashed. Much customer disfatisfaction due to poor tech support. Some quick print shops are exploring their options from other vendors. In OZ its a matter of "you get what you pay for", and even though KM is best price, initially, it does eventually catch up and ends up costing the owners in other ways.

I don't think Ben is in Australia so Im not sure how this helps him, if it is in fact true.

Uber, can you elaborate on the de-hudifiers in the 6501? How do they work? What do they do exactly to de-humidify the paper, is it adjustable for different paper types?

Quite easy you put paper in the tray and it gets dried out. You could leave the paper in overnight if you wanted to but I find it is good to go in 30min.

If you wanted to change your own fuser on the c6501 you could, I have customers who do. You can purchase a quick change kit which allows you to swap fusers in seconds. However this the exception rather than the norm.

 

[bigben]

ok, I've went to a demo today for both KM and Xerox.

Overall (for a newbie eye), the KM seems to have a better built than the Xerox More metallic parts. The parts in the KM are much bigger in the Xerox. The X700 seems to have a built like an office printer. Also, the SD-506 finisher is geat and I can add other stuff in the future. I wish the SD-506 had a square fold like the Xerox. I'm now waiting for the price.

The rep and tech told me I can use the internal fiery with the SD-506 finisher. But if I add something else, I will need to upgrade to the Creo.

What price difference should I expect between the FS-607 and SD-506? and internal Fiery and creo?

Does the C6501 will be discontinued in the next 2 years?

 

[msaeger]

Metal parts aren't always better. Also just because you open the door and see plastic that doesn't mean the machine is a big piece of plastic there is probably metal behind the covers. The Ricoh c900 probably isn't a production machine according to some of you guys either I suppose so what do I know

 

[GusG]

Belt fuser technology in the x800/1000 is vastly different.

I don't doubt that for a minute. My comment was merely because Ubertech's praise of the KM's fuser belt technology came across as though KM implemented fuser belt technology before Xerox did. Therefore my comment that my 10 year old Xerox already has a fuser belt.

 

[UberTech]

The rep and tech told me I can use the internal fiery with the SD-506 finisher. But if I add something else, I will need to upgrade to the Creo.

What price difference should I expect between the FS-607 and SD-506? and internal Fiery and creo?

Does the C6501 will be discontinued in the next 2 years?

I very much doubt this, get it in writing. I would be surprised if the 6501 will see the year out. Get it while you can, I would expect the 6000/7000 to be more inline with the 700 price.

 

[OzTech]

Not wanting to take sides in the debate but just to clarify a couple of things..
The Sfida family of products (2060, 5252,2045 and 6060) all use a Pressure Belt not a Fuser Belt I know its terminology but the Chamonix is the first (Xerox) to do away with the Fuser Roll or Heat roll it now uses a Fuser Belt and Pressure Roll much better to allow faster heating and cooling during mixed media printing and also stops the Gloss Differential issues of the circumference of the fuser roll being smaller than the sheet size.
Cheers

 

[DigiPrint]

Multiple fusers is good!

Multiple fusers is good!

You would want multiple fusers for the x700, sites I have seen have upwards of 4. Get's quite confusing and I have seen the odd heated argument about which fuser does what, hilarious.

I run Xerox, and I run multiple fusers. One of my good friends who owns a competitive shop in town runs Konica and he is swearing right now about being stuck with one fuser. Everyone one knows that the edge of paper cuts into the fuser and I am able to switch out if running 11" or 12", plus I have a back up. He asked Konica for a back-up fuser, in which they responded he would need training and tools to take it out first, second it is $1,500 to have one on-site. <--- that Mr. Ubertech is Hilarious!

 

[Dan Bergen]

the KM unit has toner particles as small as 3 microns, due to their patented Simitri HD toner technology (originally patented in 1985).....smaller toner particles mean less heat and pressure needed to fuse toner to paper, and means more flexibility in the paper used..............the KM unit is not a sped up office machine like the X700 (which is most likely based on Fuji-made Imari engine used in office products)

 

[msaeger]

How does the 6501 fuser come out that they would need special tools ? I can see if it's hard to remove that they wouldn't want the end user trying to do it but if it's not that hard I would think it would be in the dealers best interest to let the guy swap them out instead of having them call every week and having to rebuild the thing.

For the c900's we are supposed to have a spare fuser on site just to reduce the down time. It just lifts out so it's not really hard to swap but Ricoh doesn't recommend the customer do it because it weighs 60 pounds. I have had one tech tell me they have a customer that does it though.

The drums, cleaning units, corona units, developer, ITB cleaning unit, and PTR unit. Can be swapped by the customer if they choose and they machine comes with and extra set of each of these units. I don't have anyone that actually swaps out this stuff themselves but it's nice to have the extra units. Then when it needs maintenance I can swap the units and then rebuild them later and get the machine running again faster.

 

[DigiPrint]

the KM unit has toner particles as small as 3 microns, due to their patented Simitri HD toner technology (originally patented in 1985).....smaller toner particles mean less heat and pressure needed to fuse toner to paper, and means more flexibility in the paper used..............the KM unit is not a sped up office machine like the X700 (which is most likely based on Fuji-made Imari engine used in office products)

They are all the same in my opinion with the toner. Xerox uses EA toner with 3 microns particle size also which uses less pressure and heat in the process...nothing new. "This new technology enables production of toner using 25-35 percent
less energy/lb of toner. Combined with 40-50 percent less toner needed during
printing, EA technology offers an estimated 60-70 percent energy saving per
printed page." Canon has their toner and ricoh theirs...

There is no doubt the 700 shares technology from previous platforms, but previously owning a DocuColor 250 that doesn't scare me - they have over 25,000 docucolors in North America alone (quoted to me when I vistied their Gil Hatch). Tried, tested, and true in my opinion. Xerox is worth every dollar.

 

[UberTech]

I run Xerox, and I run multiple fusers. One of my good friends who owns a competitive shop in town runs Konica and he is swearing right now about being stuck with one fuser. Everyone one knows that the edge of paper cuts into the fuser and I am able to switch out if running 11" or 12", plus I have a back up. He asked Konica for a back-up fuser, in which they responded he would need training and tools to take it out first, second it is $1,500 to have one on-site. <--- that Mr. Ubertech is Hilarious!

We have found that the marks annoy about 10% of customers, of which we gave fusers....which the never use, so, much like the Iphone 4 aerial problem it's all blown out of proportion. They came out with a quick release kit so you could turn one dial and whip the fuser out, this is really an osh issue as the fuser is not exactly light, not like a fuser from a business machine.

If your friend wants the part number let me know.